THE BEST ALBUMS OF 2011: 10-1

Catch the rest of OTIOBR’s THE BEST OF 2011 here.
(Preface: We apologize for the lateness in releasing our top 10. Some flight delays and previous engagements prevented us from posting this until now, but we’re glad you’re still here.)
2011 was a superb year, and while we admit that they’re weren’t as many bona fide classics as say, I don’t know, 2009 (what a great fucking year), 2011 has proved to be one of the best all-around years in recent memory. With rising stars already making names for themselves, we thought this list might be reflective of something to see in the near future.
Thanks for reading and keeping up with us, and we hope you enjoy the end of our list, bros.
Sincerely,
Adrian Rojas and Bill Neidhardt.
10. HOUSE OF BALLOONS by THE WEEKND

LISTEN: “The Morning”
When I first heard The Weeknd’s “What You Need” in early March, I was absolutely blown away. That sample of Aaliyah’s “Rock My Boat”, which was churned so slow that you probably thought you were high on cough syrup, was the basis for a deliciously sexy beat. Combined with Abel Tesfaye’s spacious vocals, it was a recipe for a success. Following the popularity of “What You Need”, Tesfaye’s project The Weeknd set the Internet ablaze with House of Balloons, an insatiably passionate and seductive record. Tesfaye’s croons of sex, drugs, and prosperity were demonstrated perfectly in his tight-knit lyricism: “If it hurts to breathe, open up the window,” on the title track.
I guess what really amazed me about this album was the “don’t-give-a-fuck” attitude it presented. Tesfaye’s bravado, which may seem arrogant to some, actually works perfectly in a setting like this. I mean, who else could get away with saying, “From the morning to the evening/ Complaints from the tenants/ Got the walls kickin’ like they 6 months pregnant.” No one, that’s who. Tesfaye’s confidence and his grimey spirit seem like they shouldn’t meld as wonderfully as they do on House of Balloons, but the fact of the matter is that The Weeknd has the ability to create a sound structure through traditionally unorthodox settings.
But aside from fervent lyricism and murky beats, Tesfaye’s forward-thinking provided an album that was simply one step ahead of the game. Sampling normally nontraditional tracks like Beach House’s “Master of None”, House of Balloons became more about being open to experimentation, much like Tesfaye’s desire to experiment with your girl. Each track on House of Balloons drips with its own unique and alluring atmosphere that has seemingly justified sloppy grinding within white-indie-kid circles. And you know what? That’s quite alright.
—AR
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9. TOMBOY by PANDA BEAR

LISTEN: “Last Night At The Jetty”
In case you haven’t read a review of this album, the general consensus is that this album sounds “cosmic” where Person Pitch was “swampy.” That’s true, but the true comparison for 2007’s Person Pitch and this year’s Tomboy is much more complicated than just how their general sound is different from each other. Sure this album isn’t going to jumpstart a whole movement, but do we really expect him to do this? Noah Lennox was part of Merriweather Post Pavilion and Person Pitch, two albums that define an entire generation of music. He has had a major role in developing many sounds, bringing a new groove to this whole scene. Not even Thom Yorke could tie three perfect albums together. So yes, Person Pitch & MPP > Tomboy, but keep in mind we haven’t even discussed any strengths of this album yet, and it still is in conversation with instant classics. Tomboy isn’t Person Pitch and Tomboy isn’t perfect. It is, however, one hell of an album.
Part of what made placing Tomboy on this list difficult was how I, and most avid Panda Bear fans, first heard the songs on here. Tomboy was the most anticipated album for 2011. This means that people were dying to hear what he had been working on this whole time. Let’s go back to late 2010, when we were writing the first annual installment of OTIOBR’s Best of the Year series. I was supposed to focus on that year’s best, perhaps getting a refresher on Beach House or another early 2010 release. Instead, I was combing the internets, from Gorilla vs. Bear to the deep annals of web forums, looking for any sneak peak to what Noah Lennox had hidden up his sleeves. I craved more Panda. Person Pitch was wearing off; granted it took a few years, but I needed new Panda. I needed just a taste, to see what it will sound like, what direction he is going to take. Then I stumbled upon his Governor’s Island concert rip. It was here that I was introduced to the beginnings of “Last Night on the Jetty”, “Slow Motion”, “Surfer’s Hymn” (and the non-Tomboy, but perhaps best song from that concert, “Song for Ariel”).
The result of the Governor’s Island rip, and the equally amazing performance at the 2010 Primavera Sound Festival, was that my conception, along with many other’s, was of an album that was released in two formats: Panda Bear’s work and Panda Bear’s work with Sonic Boom altering some details. And this gets down to what I think many had issues with regarding this album. The early material we heard was Person Pitch-y for the fact that a poor concert rip is going to sound a little swampy and the live, and early, versions of these songs simply did not have all the sonic details that the proper release did, relying more on strong melodies and harmonies as well as large booming rhythms.
Out of the mutual songs of Tomboy and Governor’s Island / Primavera Sound, I argue that there are better versions of certain songs. The original “Slow Motion” is superior to Tomboy’s and the same could be said for “Last Night at the Jetty”. The Sonic Boom additions were loved by some, but to those who were listening to these tunes for a while now, they were a subtle direction change that wasn’t necessarily welcome, not that the new sound was bad, but that it was different from the songs we had already grown to love. In this way, Tomboy is as much a remix re-release as it is an album on to itself. This creates two ways to look at Panda Bear’s output for 2011. Either I focus on the album Tomboy, or pay true respect to what these songs and sounds mean to me and consider this release something more than just 11 tracks.
Tomboy has been with me throughout the entirety of 2011, from New Year’s Eve to Christmas Eve. Songs like “Slow Motion” made great winter hymnals while the deluxe edition reissue on vinal for Record Store Day turned it into a summer smash with “Last Night on the Jetty” and “Surfer’s Hymn”. Every season brought on a new relevance for the album, every mood I was in found a compatible melody or rythym. Tomboy isn’t as influential as Person Pitch, but it has the same listening lasting power. It takes a great album for fans to search for version after version of a single track. By listening to one song, in different forms, from season to season, your understanding of Noah Lennox shifts as you hear a new part of him month after month. Deep down, Tomboy is made up of a singular idea that I could toss around for an entire year, and that is a stunning feat. Tomboy is not the best album of this year, but I couldn’t imagine the past 12 months without it.
—BN
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8. W H O K I L L by TUNE-YARDS

LISTEN: “Es-So”
A New England white girl pushing Afro-beat music? I wouldn’t have expected it myself. But Merrill Garbus’ tUnE-yArDs project created a flawlessly addicting album in w h o k i l l, which grabs influences from nearly every corner of the planet, including traditional and non-traditional African sounds. Garbus’ masterful use of looping also makes w h o k i l l feel like something special. She creates monolithic sounds by stacking layers upon layers of drums, yelps, and clicks.
For me personally, I don’t think I had as much fun listening to an album in 2011 than w h o k i l l. I remember specifically playing Call of Duty Black Ops last spring (I know, I’m a fucking geek), while “My Country“‘s energy-filled purging filled the room. I fell in love with this album almost instantaneously, as each note that escaped from Garbus’ ukelele drew me closer. But the addictiveness of this album only half-rests on its magnificent creation of sound.
Garbus’ cathartic lyricism (“There is a freedom in violence that I don’t understand, and like I’ve never felt before”), serves as a tremendous counterbalance to her infectious tunes. She tackles her self-doubts and insecurities throughout w h o k i l l, but in a manner so unpretentious. On the standout “Es-So”, she drives a fork into the issue of body image, as she defeatedly whimpers, “I can’t believe I ate the whole thing.” For Garbus, w h o k i l l serves as a piece that is not only sonically pleasing, but content wise, substantially reflective of societal norms and misconceptions. That combined with her perfect dictation of melody (See: “Gangsta”) helps to make this album relentlessly addicting. If you’ve ever seen tUnE-yArDs live, you’ll know that Garbus and co. put on a spectacular show full of rhythms and beats that are sure to get your ass shaking. But this album is more than just fun-loving music; it makes spot-on social commentary (like that “hip” monologue in “Killa”), and its radical expressions make this unorthodox LP on the cutting-edge of shit.
(Also, I kind of find Merrill Garbus mad cute?)
—AR
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7. DYE IT BLONDE by SMITH WESTERNS

LISTEN: “All Die Young”
Music is a/the way to convey feelings and one’s thoughts on being alive. Most of the time, we talk about artists conveying the feeling of youthfulness, and we are discussing an artist that revolves around nostalgic sounds and classic pop melodies. Ariel Pink and Ford & Lopatin (or, more specifically, Games) are examples of some of our favorite artists who use that sense of nostalgia to remind us what our youth, and their youth was like. These thirtysomethings usually do a good job of replicating that feeling of being young and alive, celebrating the blissful ignorance we once had. However, there is nothing better than the real thing. Smith Westerns don’t have to pretend. They are the real thing.
Smith Westerns take the idea of being a youth and turn it into rock music with close to nothing lost in translation. It’s actually somewhat remarkable that young kids recording their first proper release, with the expert tutelage of Girls, could combine the message of their elders with nearly the same technical expertise and finesse. For everything that the Smith Westerns are, a fresh and awkward group of boys, they aren’t an amazingly crisp and technically complex group of talented musicians.
I might have one gripe, but it’s nothing of much magnitude. Back before their self-titled debut, the Smith Westerns released a single so perfect it almost didn’t make sense. “Imagine, Part 3” was as perfect as a song these guys could make. So what did they do? They went and changed it. They sped it up a little bit, tightened everything up, and upped the production value. That goes with the whole album, and it’s true that this song absolutely had to be part of their canon, but it doesn’t necessarily mean that they had to change it so much. Which leads me to one more thing. These kids changed it for themselves. They had grown so quickly since that song was first recorded that they couldn’t just leave it there; they had to improve. These kids are hungry and full of piss and vinegar. They aren’t going to leave any stone unturned. This drive to perfection and anything-goes attitude means one thing, these young guns might be #7 this year, but they have what it takes to keep on rising.
For those who want more, and are also Chicago natives, take a look at the Chicago-laden music video for their infectious hit single, “Weekend”.
—BN
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6. WE MUST BECOME THE PITILESS CENSORS OF OURSELVES by JOHN MAUS

LISTEN: “Believer”
I didn’t know much about John Maus before We Must Become the Pitiless Censors of Ourselves was released this year. It didn’t take me long to get into him, though. With the same, and related, Cult of Personality that Ariel Pink possess, John Maus comes off as a godfather of a specific movement we can easily see happening in music these days. He has been releasing material since I was born, and all those years of exploring and the match-made-in-heaven pairing up with Ariel Pink, creates an album that adds to his persona as much as his antics do.
What speaks most highly of John Maus’ legendary songwriting prowess are the three absolute stunners on this album. “Believer” is a stunner. His surreal approach to life, to everything, is highlighted here and it’s quite frightening. He scares the understanding of life into you. “Hey Moon” is almost too beautiful. The duet is so moving that one can’t help but find yourself feeling as though you are part of their love triangle. The lyrics reek of longing and unrequited love, and the music only adds to the deep sense of loneliness that overcomes you. On a quick note, some of these feelings that Maus evokes seem negative. Why on earth would I want to feel sad? It is much more than that. Maus is capturing human emotion with such expertise and precision that it is completely disarming to listen to. The third highlight I would like to point out is “Quantum Leap”. You can really hear the Ariel Pink influence here, especially in that fantastic opening that sounds like it belongs on Before Today, last year’s #3 album. With Maus’ subdued yet paralyzing lyrics and singing and the classic pop-rock of Ariel Pink, “Quantum Leap” is the defining sound here. It beckons of the past while challenging the future. The number one authority of John Maus is the man, the legend, himself. Maus summarizes his album as something that “looks towards the future in all its absurdity.” Couldn’t have said it better myself.
This album is perplexing. It is very hard to get your mind wrapped around everything that is going on here. With that said, Maus is putting forward a message, nay, a state of mind, that is uncommon to say the least. You are going to get something very different from this album than any other on this list. It is challenging to write about because the grand ideas about what the world really is, are put forward through deep emotional conveyance that can be felt much easier than described. I recommend that you dig through the amazing wealth of recorded live shows and interviews. I wrote earlier in this list about Bradford Cox’s great interviews. Please, Cox is only pretending to be what John Maus actually is. (For starters, check out this great interview.)
To sum it all up, I hand it over to his longtime friend and partner-in-crime, Ariel Pink: “John Maus is a maniac on a bloody crusade; a tortured evangelist on a mercenary quest to rid our world of villainous defilers of The Gospel of True Love. By turns shockingly infectious and disarmingly unpredictable, his music conflates a perplexing marriage of Moroder’s ‘Never Ending Story’ and classical 12-tone renegades of 20th century past, harking THE NEW path which resurrects romance from its post-modern shackles, and reignites the promise of a better world.”
—BN
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5. FATHER, SON, HOLY GHOST by GIRLS

LISTEN: “Honey Bunny”
In 2009, a band led by Christopher Owens and Chet “JR” White created one of this guy’s favorite albums of all time. Conveniently titled Album, the band Girls brought forth some of the most intensely moving collection of songs in recent memory. So when the follow-up Father, Son, Holy Ghost was announced, I had some fears the bubble would burst. But what happened instead was the opposite. Father…, while technically a ‘safe’ follow-up to Album, showcases a tighter, more concise band. Though not as magical as their debut (I hold that shit to the highest regard), every track on this LP is as heartfelt as the last, and displays a Christopher Owens with even stronger writing convictions, which evokes an unbelievable connection with listeners.
Growing up in the Children of God cult, Owens escaped its grasps when he was 13. In doing so, however, he abandoned the rest of his family who opted to stay. He recently stated in interviews leading up to the release of Father… that he has gotten in contact with his mother, and it has closed many haunting gaps in his life. That candid spirit is mirrored on Father…, where tracks like “My Ma” help to display Owens’ frank sentiments: “I’m looking for meaning in my life and you my Ma’.” In the quick-hitting “Honey Bunny”, Owens even points out the particulars of his body that he feels uncomfortable with: “They don’t like my bony body. They don’t like my dirty hair…or the stuff that I’m on.”
But in addition to excellent songwriting, Girls come off sounding as big as ever on this album. The vivacious epic “Vomit” features billowing plumes of organ play, and a strong tinge of gospel-inspired background singing. On “Die”, Girls do their best Deep Purple impression as uncompromisingly sturdy riffs fill the airwaves. But the song best reflective of this band’s true skill is the standout “Just A Song”, where Owens and his band create a wondrous, changing landscape of sound that transforms this track from a one-man singalong to a baroque-pop ballad. Though the title of this album would suggest a Christian element, theses guys are far from it (see: drugs), it actually deals more broadly with finding one’s inner-spirituality, which Owens seems to hone in on perfectly throughout the album.
—AR
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4. KAPUTT by DESTROYER

LISTEN: “Savage Night At The Opera”
Dan Bejar is a weird dude. His lanky body, olive skin tone, and hairy head makes him stand out as is, but it’s this dude’s songwriting that really defines him. His sporadic delivery combined with eclectic instrumentation defined much of Destroyer’s illustrious career. But it’s on Kaputt that we see Bejar and his band slow down to take a relaxed and insightful journey that takes inspiration from soft rock—my lord, those sax solos. Though that sounds like a recipe for something trite, Destroyer absolutely brings pleasure to the ear drums as tracks like “Chinatown” and “Blue Eyes” are silky smooth in their delivery. With each sax note and heartbreaking guitar lick made on Kaputt, the more this album makes a case to become a record collector’s necessity.
The velvety flow of Kaputt’s instrumentation is only one part of this two-headed beast. On this album, Bejar finds himself delivering some of the most cognizant and tantalizing lyrics of his long and storied career. From his slow, soft coos on “Savage Night of The Opera” (“Quatrain etched on a turnstile/ Just set the loop and then go wild”), to his dry wit on “Song For America” (“I wrote a song for America/ They told me it was clever/ Jessica’s gone on vacation on the dark side of town forever”), Bejar defiantly proves himself to be one of the most cryptically talented songwriters alive.
From its welcoming beginning to its dazzling ending (“Bay of Pigs”), Kaputt more than often amazes with its unparalleled cohesiveness and style. But its embrace of the past, which seems to be a common theme in this top 10, gives it a personality so unlike anything else. Destroyer isn’t borrowing ideas as much as the band is redefining them by adding Bejar’s anecdotes and stylistic variations to make something just teeming with nostalgic individuality.
—AR
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3. DAYS by REAL ESTATE

LISTEN: “Wonder Years”
No matter what happened, whether it be massive floods, a plague of locusts, or some terrible internet shortage catastrophe, Days by Real Estate would be in the top 3 albums. If Adrian and I had a contract, that would be in the first clause. Now don’t get me wrong, both of the albums listed higher (as in lower in number) are fantastic. They deserve to be where they are and should be listened to with as much or more attention. The point still remains, the sound that Real Estate is founded on, a somewhat Beach Boys-esque revival based on floating guitars and peaceful melodies, has been perfected. Summers in America will never be the same. I want this to be said, no matter how bombastic it comes off, this album isn’t the greatest of all time, but, it is perfect. The boys behind this effort should not feel one thread of regret. They worked their asses off to make the most relaxing album of the year.
Real Estate has a great self-titled debut that I consider underrated and a shockingly well rounded piece of work. I really love their first album, and so does Adrian. (And so does pretty much everyone I know who has listened to it.) So, take a look at their first work. Notice the intricacies, the accessible and approachable chill that they possess, and the earnest feelings of love and relaxation. The guitars are brightly layered and beautiful to say the least. The singing takes you to the sandy patio that they are all posted up by.
Budweiser, Sprite, I feel alright.
Now take that album and improve EVERYTHING on it. The guitars? Crisper, yet more telling of the true aesthetic they are looking for. From the jangly opener “Easy” to the wandering and sedative instrumental of “Kinder Blumen”, they are on another level. You feel as though they are doing the most they can to squeeze every bit of potential they have into this work. The result is some of the best guitar work of this year. The vocals are vastly improved as well. A great showcase of Martin Courtney’s new vocal depth can be seen in “Municipality”, which also brings me to another point: the songwriting of Real Estate is absolutely impeccable on Days. From the lyrics on “Out of Tune”, “It’s Real”, and “Wonder Years”, I can’t help but wonder what Poet Laureate stopped by the recording studio. Even the simple “do-do-do” on “Wonder Years” gets me and that’s because it just plain works over all that beach commotion in the background. They change up song structure as they did before, but there is no longer an hint of a guitar drifting too far away. Every switch up, every breakdown, it’s just perfectly placed and well times. The drums also saw a great improvement. Jackson Pollis tightened everything up and gives a good drive behind every song. His increased auxiliary percussion works wonders as well—especially in “Three Blocks”—and his precision on his drum set in “All the Same” is refreshing. With all the easygoing melodies and harmonies of the guitars and Courtney’s singing, Pollis ties everything together. And the production value on this thing is absolutely stunning (“It’s Real” is simply a masterpiece. Everything is going right in this song).
I love this album. The other ones on this list are great; the two listed ahead of this one are favorites of mine that will live on for years to come. But they simply can’t touch the attachment I have for this work. There is a song for every moment I live life through. This album means a lot to me, and I’m starting to get mad worked up about it. I wrote a lot for Panda Bear, and knocked out quite a few keystrokes for other reviews. I simply don’t have much more to say about this album. It “cuts you down like a sharpened knife.” If you haven’t listened to this yet, I highly recommend it. Their first album had a lot of staying power, it’s never skipped in a shuffle, but this one, man, I just don’t know if there is enough time in my life to listen to other albums while I’m still riding this trip.
—BN
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2. BLACK UP by SHABAZZ PALACES

LISTEN: “Are you… Can you… Were you? (Felt)”
This year’s best hip-hop album, with no doubt in my mind and no reservations from either of us when we were first making this list, is brought to us by Shabazz Palaces. Black Up is an upmost perfect follow-up to two wonderful and enticing, though not complete, showings from 2010, Of Light and a self-titled EP. The entire album has guests THEESatisfaction coming in and out, but not in a disruptive way at all. Moreover, the rapping: impeccable. The MC of Shabazz Palaces is Palaceer Lazaro (stage name) and he is on another level lyrically as well. Each word seems to hold weight, every stanza filled with so much meaning. The poetry of Black Up is as important as the instrumentals which are beautiful, dense, shape shifting, heady, trippy, and groovy, all thanks to the other half, Tendai Maraire.
Palaceer has already been part of one of the most essential hip-hop albums of all time, Blowout Comb by Digable Planets. Since then, Palaceer has aged, moved from New York to Seattle, and has not skipped a beat in technical skill and creativity. In fact, part of what brings so much allure to this album is Palaceer’s palpable excitement and imagination which seems to contrast his graying hair and goatee.
Shabazz Palaces - Black Up (OFFICIAL ALBUM SHORT FILM/VIDEO) from Sub Pop Records on Vimeo.
Sasha Frere-Jones, a god in the Hip-Hop critic world (he works for the freakin New Yorker!), has a good summary of hip-hop in 2011. On the top of his list, Shabazz Palaces. I’ve seen this time and time again from those who are like Adrian and I (and hopefully you, fellow readers who are not our moms) in our taste of music. Rap is great, but much of it has gone off track from the real message of the movement. [See: my review of why Kendrick Lamar is on our list but the Carter 4 was nowhere to be seen.] Shabazz combines the musical aesthetic that we crave with the dope as fuck message that artists from KRS-One to early-Common built their careers on. I was blown away by how Shabazz could navigate this strait. Even more impressive is when you impress Frere-Jones. I’m finding it difficult to put into words exactly what Shabazz has done here with Black Up, so SFJ will take care of it: “It’s a marvel of details that you can’t initially hear, but which eventually surround you as Butler raps, sounding no more wound up than he did twenty years ago. In the year of disorientation, Shabazz Palaces created the clearest, loveliest fog.”
This is the best hip-hop album of the year. This is nearly the best album of all musical output from this year. Without a doubt, Black Up is going to go down with modern classics the likes of… dare I say… Illmatic or Public Enemy’s It Takes a Nation of a Million to Hold Us Back?
—BN
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1. JAMES BLAKE by JAMES BLAKE

LISTEN: “I Mind”
So, here we are.
Without a doubt in my mind, James Blake’s evocative self-titled debut album is the best release of 2011. Aside from the brostep fuckery of Skrillex, Deadmau5, and Rusko, actual dubstep had a defining year. Following the success of last year’s CMYK and Klavierwerke, James Blake catapulted into the hype-stratosphere in anticipation of his debut album. I first listened to James Blake when it briefly leaked exactly a year ago. I was on winter break then, and this album still stands as one my favorites to pop in when the sun rests beneath the horizon and snow flakes cascade upon the pavement. It’s been nearly a year since I first heard this, and it still manages to blow me away. That serves as a testament to this album’s longevity. Often, even if I’m really into an album, the magic fades away after a few months. This was not the case with James Blake, however. To this day, James Blake is an album I can put on at any moment, and be content with the decision. That, my friends, is something most albums in my collection could not even fathom.
But what makes this LP the best of the year? There is just so much beauty that lies within this album’s superb display of layered instrumentation. In the excellent “The Wilhelm Scream”, James uses his classical piano training in correlation with two-step elements to form a mystic, immersing track. On the stellar two-part “Lindesfarne”, we see Blake utilizing a vocoder while he gently warbles, “Beacon, don’t fly too high.” And that’s another point one should make when discussing this album: the role of James Blake’s voice. Prior to this album, Blake’s voice was often only used a secondary element (see: Klaverwerke’s tremendous use of it). But on James Blake, it takes the forefront, and deservingly so. It’s almost magical how alluring Blake’s voice is, with its unforced, tranquil delivery. And while his voice, which up until this album was practically a mystery, is hauntingly marvelous, it doesn’t hurt that he’s a tremendous songwriter, either. Just look at the fleeting vividness of “Unluck”, where he calmly confesses, “Only child, take good care/ I wouldn’t like you/ Playing, falling there.” And on the closer “Measurements”, Blake’s final croons drive deep into the heart without becoming overbearing: “Watching their faith in prayers will make you see your bones.”
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2011 was a strange year for music to say the least. Many of the artists you saw on our list rose to fame due in large part to the Internet. With each passing year, the importance of the World Wide Web reveals itself even more in terms of music. Artists like Lil B and Tyler, The Creator made names for themselves through the use of media upload sites and the release of free mixtapes. It’s creating a more democratic musical landscape where popularity is no longer defined by radio play or record sales, but by site hits and download numbers. Some will say that the past two years have started hammering in the last nail on the record industry coffin, which is both positive and negative. Music has never been this accessible, and I think we can all agree that it’s allowing a slew of talented, unknown artists to make a name for themselves.
That’s what this should be all about.
—AR
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Listen to more from these artists on our End of The Year playlist on Spotify.
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jessensei said:
I don’t know man. The good thing about labels is that they can guide artists finding their way. Some talented people just don’t have the knowhow of making a record. They need the industry. It’s a difficult debate but I see your point.
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